Why Active Listening is a Top Sales Skill - Outside Sales Talk with Roger Martin

Roger Martin is the Co-Founder and CEO of RockBox Fitness and beam® Light Sauna, as well as an accomplished entrepreneur with a 30-year career in sales and marketing. Roger also shares insights on wellness and health through his ThriveMore platform and podcast. Roger's latest book, "An Insider's Guide to Business," is a practical roadmap filled with real-world examples and relatable stories and is available on Amazon now. With a wealth of experience in sales, marketing, and C-level leadership, Roger brings a unique perspective to the table.

In this episode, we explore the nuances of active listening and effective communication.

Here are some of the topics covered in this episode:

• The art of active listening and uncovering true customer needs
• Techniques for enhancing communication through silence, pauses, and tonality
• The role of body language in building rapport with prospects
• Strategies for maintaining focus during sales conversations
• Exploring the concept of "say less and sell more"
• Leveraging active listening to convert prospects and drive successful outcomes

More From the Guest:

His Book: An Insider's Guide To Business: Secrets From An Entrepreneur's Playbook

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/realrogermartin

Social: @realrogermartin

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Why Active Listening is a Top Sales Skill with Roger Martin - Transcript

The Importance Of Active Listening In Sales

Steve: Welcome back to Outside Sales Talk. Today, we're going to be talking about why active listening is a top sales skill. I've got Roger Martin with me. Welcome to the show, Roger.

Roger: Glad to be here, and I appreciate the opportunity.

Steve: Absolutely. By way of introduction, Roger is the co-founder and CEO of two national franchise brands, Rockbox Fitness and Beam Light Sauna, as well as various other businesses. He's built a 30-year career in sales, marketing, and C-level leadership with his Thrive More platform and brands. Roger is also the host of the Thrive More with Roger Martin podcast, where he covers topics based on wellness and more. So, first question, Roger: What does active listening look like and sound like to you?

Roger: Well, it looks like and sounds like people signing contracts because you've closed the deal. That's what it looks like.

Roger: But for your listeners, just a little bit more dovetailed to that intro, I spent the first 25 years of my career in pharmaceutical sales, pharmaceutical sales, and marketing, from Fortune 50 companies to working for a private equity firm. And my entire career was built on leading sales forces. And then as I've gone into business for myself about seven, eight years ago, I started Rockbox Fitness and later Beam Light Sauna. You know, my job is to teach my franchisees. We have 60 open locations for Rockbox, and we're about to have 75 open for Beam by the end of next year. It's teaching my franchisees how to sell and how to train their teams to sell. These are memberships, of course, we'd be selling in those instances. So, I've done it all — sold everything from a $200 membership to a $15 million contract when I was in pharma. So it's kind of everything in between, but it's really all the same.

Roger: You have a prospect on one side of the table and you on the other, and you want to actively understand what their true needs are. A lot of times, they're not even sure what they really, really want. They certainly, a lot of times, don't know what they need. They may know what they want, but they don't know what they need. And then, of course, our product or service should hopefully be able to fill that need. And if not, we shouldn't sell to them. So, a simple answer to your very straightforward question is that active listening is being diligent and intentional in how you have that sales conversation. You're going to ask a question, and then believe it or not, you're just going to stop and listen to what the answer is versus thinking, "What am I going to say next? And if they say this, what do I say? And if they say that, what do I say?"

Roger: That's hard work. Active listening really makes sales so much more. It flows better and just makes it so much more enjoyable, I believe, as a profession, because then the word "sales" equals "help" versus "I'm trying to get the deal" or "I'm trying to ring the cash register." You will get the deal and ring the cash register if you're actually listening, understanding, and asking checking questions. And using your voice, we can talk about this in the podcast, but I'm huge on training teams to use tonality, to use pauses, and to use silence. Because silence and pauses can be so powerful in showing the prospect that you care, that you're listening, and that you want to know truly what they have to say versus thinking, "What am I going to say next?"

Roger: Too many salespeople are thinking, "What am I going to say next? I've got my pitch, and I've got 37 slides, and gosh darn it, we're going through all 37." That's just kind of the old and very outdated way to sell in today's market.

Steve: Absolutely. Yeah. Talk a little more about how and when you use silence and pauses. I think that's so important.

Roger: Yeah. So I always, I don't have one — when you're speaking to someone, I'm speaking to Steve right now. Steven and I are talking about Badger and his company. And if I were to ask a question about Badger, I would want to get a little quieter. I want to get a little slower and say, "Steve, what are your plans for, let's say, the next three years for your business? If you could grow that business to a level that would exceed your expectations, what would that look like?"

Roger: You are going to hang on my every word as I slow down. I'm talking about you and your business, not what I do and what we do. But, you know, watch movies, watch comedians, watch great actors, how they command the use of space in language. And that's so powerful. Yet we all have this vision of the slick-talking used car salesperson. There's a lot of great used car salespeople, by the way, but they always get lumped in there. And you know, that just that they're talking fast. And if I keep talking fast, the prospect, I'll just razzle-dazzle them, you know, and then it'll close them. And that's just not an effective way, especially today, because the internet has democratized information. So people get these tactics.

Roger: You know, if you're still using feel-felt-found, you're using an outdated tactic that people already know. They've heard that. You have to be genuine, you know, shocker alert. You actually have to care and be genuine and authentic as you're talking with your prospect because they're going to feel that. All day long, they're scrolling or watching and seeing what authenticity looks like and what BS looks like.

Roger: So it's a new age for selling. I love it because that's going to separate the men from the boys and the women from the girls, for the people who are truly sales professionals versus just product slingers.

Steve: Absolutely. And when you say "genuine," does tonality play a role in that too?

Roger: A hundred percent. That's a great question. Because if I were to ask you, "Steve, have you hit all your goals for what you want to achieve with Badger in 2023?" that's a very different approach than saying, "Steve, in 2023, if you were to rank your product's success or your service's success, where would you put that on a scale of one to ten?" You know, I had this thing I call the puppy dog. If the listeners are listening and not watching on YouTube, I literally tilt my head like a puppy dog because it shows people that I'm genuinely interested. I'm genuinely curious about how the success of your company in 2023 has been so we can talk about that.

Roger: And I'm going to lower my voice, and I'm going to use a concerned tone, like, "Have you hit your goals?" Because you may have, or you may have not. You may say, "We crushed it." And then I'm going to say, "That's awesome." I will raise my tone back up, like, "Steve, that's fantastic. That is fantastic. What’s your next goal for your business since you’ve already achieved your 2023 goal?" I’m going to take it in a different direction because you’re excited about your results, so I should be excited about your results. Now we’re going to future cast into 2024, 2025, 2026 to see if I can truly help you.

Roger: It’s when maybe you haven’t hit the goal that we’re going to stay in a concerned tone because we’re concerned about helping you fix and grow your business. So tonality, 100%, it’s so important. I find too often, I’ve coached thousands of salespeople, and one, they’re too loud, and I don’t understand that. Literally, I’m talking about volume-wise. They just speak too loudly. And I wonder if that’s because they want to make sure they’re heard, like they’re trying to impose their will. And this is men and women, by the way.

Roger: I’ve found that when you're talking at full volume during a presentation or in a one-on-one, you’re not showing concern. You’re not showing genuine understanding. You’re dominating the conversation, which is not a way to get more sales. So you have to vary that tone, that volume, the tonality, the concern tone, the excited tone, the "Huh, tell me more" curious tone. Using a curious tone is one of the easiest ways to pull more information out of the prospect so that you can truly help them, or at least decide if you can.

Steve: You mentioned body language right there. Do you talk about the role that body language plays in active listening? And you talked about tilting your head — what are some other ways to incorporate body language when you're speaking with prospects?

Roger: Yeah, for sure. I don’t know the exact statistics. I’m sure some of your listeners do, but it’s like 7% is what you say, 38% is how you say it, and the other 50-some percent is body language. I would say even on the phone, Steve, if you were to watch me right now, I’m talking with my hands. I’m articulating because I can emote more emotion and get more excited as I use my hands.

Roger: But I’m going to always have my hands in an upward, palms-up gesture, unless I’m making a specific point. I’m going to show that I’m open, that I’m receiving, and that I’m really listening. I’ll put my hand on my heart at times and go, "Wow, that sounds like it was a tough year." I want to show that empathy. And it’s not manipulation — this is persuasion and influence. On any podcast I do or in any franchisee training here, I am so deliberate: nobody should use manipulation. That is wrong, and you will have a very short career if you do.

Roger: Manipulation is when you're trying to get somebody to do something that helps you but is bad for them. Persuasion and influence, on the other hand, are about helping someone understand the situation from a frame of reference they may not currently have. That way, they can make the best-informed decision. That decision may be to buy from me or it may not be, but they’ll have all the information and understand their situation in its full breadth, so they can make an informed decision. The goal of any salesperson, and I hope everyone listening knows this, is to help the prospect — period.

Roger: But if you can help them, it's to get them to a decision point, either yes or no. But, well, hey, let me take it back to my committee or, let's circle back after the holidays or, hey, let's do this or, hey, let's wait another three weeks or, hey, send me another report. That's going nowhere. And it feels good to the salesperson because it feels like forward momentum, but it's not. You need to get to a decision. Yes or no. And either one's fine, but let's get to a decision. So what information do you need? So again, to answer your question around body language.

Techniques For Effective Communication

Roger: It's the steepling of the hands when you're asking a very specific question that has an intention around it and shows that you've thought about it. It's the opening of the hands and that gesture of "I'm receiving what you're telling me. I understand and I'd like to know more." You know, what does that look like to you? And you'll point to your eye, right? Like, you're trying to make this up. Let's say you have a sales training company, and you're trying to sell software to them or something, and you're training sales representatives and that's your core business. When a sales rep graduates from your program and they're outstanding, what does that look like? And it's, you know, it's not so obvious. Don't poke yourself in the eye, but just kind of touch the side. You know, what does that sound like? Touch your ear. You know, when you think about what you want to be and you just touch your temple.

Roger: And again, these things—you have to practice them—but then they become second nature. Because if you're having to think of all this, it's going to look really awkward, as you can imagine. But you don’t start with everything; start with one thing. Start with, when you're listening, a little tilt of the head and again, listen. Just genuinely listen. Or, "Hey, I really understand. I feel for you," touch your heart. Start with one of those gestures, and then you can build upon those. But again, I know I keep sounding like a broken record.

Roger: You have to do it in a sense that makes sense, that flows, that almost seems seamless to the prospect. Because if not, it'll look like you're trying to manipulate them, and you're not. What you're trying to do is get crystal clear on, "I'm asking you what you think that looks like. I'm asking you, what are you thinking right now? I'm showing you, man, I feel you—that hurts. Let's get you out of that pain point with your business right now." That's going to be genuine.

Roger: You know, if you're trying to do all these crazy hand gestures because you're trying to use the stuff that you haven't prepared and practiced, then, you know, that's a recipe for disaster. And I will say everybody listening in their business should have a culture of role play, a culture of role play. Whether you're the sales manager, even if you're the sales representatives or account manager, have a culture of role play in your profession. Meaning, you will tape yourself. Everybody's got an iPhone or whatever smartphone, so nobody has an excuse. You've got a voice recorder right in front of you. Have a video camera in your car. Role play a call in your car before you go in. If you have any idea what the prospect you think is going to say, or if they've been difficult or keep pushing it off, role play that loud, videotape yourself, audio tape yourself, and listen to it. And you'll hear if you're using tonality, you'll hear if you're slightly pausing, and you'll hear if you’ll ask that question.

Roger: "Steve, what is your goal?" And just get silent. You'll hear that. For some reason, every athlete, including LeBron James and Tom Brady—any elite athlete—they practice, practice, practice. And when they miss a shot, they go back and figure out why. We're in sales. And we always say, "Well, that prospect was tough, or they don't know what they're doing, or they don’t have the budget," versus, "Okay, what can I do better? How can I have helped that customer in a better way?"

Roger: What did I do wrong? You know, when the archer misses the target, they don’t look at the target. They look at themselves and say, "Okay, geez, what did I miscalculate there with the wind and the fall of the arrow and all that?" We're in sales. I’ve found in my experience, and I’ve managed thousands of representatives, they’re much more quick to blame the prospect, the circumstance, or something else, than just say, "I’ve got to get better at my profession. I’ve got to get better."

Roger: And doing that—and obviously if they’re listening to this podcast, they’re probably in the top 10% because they’re trying to get better. I congratulate anybody just listening to a podcast like yours because they’re putting in the effort. But they still have to practice and have that culture of role play that isn’t just until the day they retire. They should still be role-playing. And I’m a CEO of two companies, actually more, but two big companies. And I just role-played yesterday with my VP of business development, for lack of a better term for our industry, on how to handle a situation. Like, we literally role-played in his office, and he's a very well-accomplished guy, and I think I am too. And we sat there and just role-played it back and forth. "What if he says this?" "What if he says that?" "Hey, man, if you say it like that, I’ll tell you how that’s going to impact me." But yet I’ll find a lot of my representatives or even franchisees' staff, they won’t role-play because it almost feels beneath them. But man, actors practice, athletes practice, salespeople should practice.

Steve: I couldn’t agree more. I think it’s super valuable to record phone calls, record meetings, record yourself role-playing. When I was in business school and they were teaching us to give better public speaking, there were folks in the speaking class, and they videoed us. You learn a ton from seeing yourself on video—the way you're standing, what you're doing with your hands. There are just too many things to think about in the real world if you don’t get kind of that out-of-body experience.

Roger: 100%, 100%. And I would recommend any salesperson either take Toastmasters or volunteer at city council or your church, whatever, to get as much public speaking experience as possible to do exactly what you just said, and put your iPhone on a cheap little $10 tripod in the back, and just videotape it. And then watch your pace. Watch how fast you talk, how much you use tonality, pauses, and silence—if you do, or maybe you don’t and you should. Watch how you use the stage because that is no different from how you will use a physical space when you're selling. If it’s a one-on-one, just around a boardroom table or something, or just in someone’s office. I’m a huge, huge proponent of, if you can command a stage, you can certainly command a boardroom or someone’s office with a very professional approach.

Steve: Yeah. And on pauses too, I’ve been giving professional speeches where we have slides and notes and stuff. I’ve actually written right in there in parentheses, like, you know, "Take pause" or just a bunch of dots on each side of it.

Roger: Yeah, it’s great. That is great. It’s whatever kind of mnemonic reminder you need to force yourself into doing that. And then it becomes a habit, but until it becomes a habit—because habits become our destiny—you can’t just hope you get it right. That’s not a strategy.

Roger: Whatever you need to do to remind yourself to do that is going to be so valuable in your career. And the people listening to this podcast, you know, the top 2%, 3% of salespeople will make all the money, make all the money. And everybody can get there if they work and practice enough, but you’ve got to commit to your craft. And this is all learnable stuff, right?

Steve: Yeah.

Roger: So you’ve kind of covered how to learn and how to practice and how to prep. What about when you're in the moment speaking with a prospect? How do you check yourself in the moment to make sure you're doing all these things? You’re actively listening, you’re emoting with your voice, you know, the 10 things you need to keep in mind. How do you keep all the things in mind in your golf swing at the same time?

Steve: I was just going to use the analogy of a golf swing, right?

Roger: That’s a golf swing. Just think of one thing when you're swinging that club, just practice one thing that you’re going to get right in that swing. And I would say the same thing with sales. If, you know, this week you practice, "I’m going to slow my pace down," and maybe I record myself, you know, just put my phone in my pocket and record it so I can listen to myself. And, you know, all I’m focusing on this week is slowing down. Maybe next week it’s using hand gestures in an appropriate way, and you can go on YouTube and find a thousand videos on the most appropriate way to do that. But I would say, in the moment, you know, I’m not perfect by any means. And so, if you and I were having a sales conversation, and I was in the middle of a presentation, and my mind went ahead and said, "Okay, I really want to start going down this path and see if I can help him understand how we can help his business." And you said something and I missed it. Steve, I would literally just stop and go, "Steve, I am so sorry. What you said about two minutes ago, I was still thinking about that."

Roger: And I didn’t hear what you just said. Can you please just run that back for me? Because this is really important to me to make sure I understand what you said. And I just want to—the fact that I—I was in my own head thinking about when you said you crushed your 2023 goal and I was just thinking, "Okay, then how can I help him do even better in 2024?" And I missed what you said. Can you repeat that for me? Now you're going to think, "Wow, this guy actually listened to me and cares." So again, you don’t have to be perfect. Just admit that, "I missed it. Sorry, I was thinking about something else, and I missed it. And this is important to me." So just, if you could, repeat that back. And I think I’m going to write that down too and just, you know, take a note here to make sure I have this right. And if you're in the middle of it, you know, a great way to make sure that you don’t get off track is, you know, I’m presenting to Steve and Steve says something and I say, "Great, just so I’m totally understanding you. What I heard you say was boom, boom, boom. Is that right?"

Steve: Yeah.

Roger: Awesome. Please continue. And, or, you know, "Please continue" sounds a little formal, so I’d just say, "Awesome. Can you tell me more about that?" So it’s really just those checking questions, which feel like Sales 101, but again, so many people are so anxious to get through their deck, through that third comfort zone. They’re so anxious to, you know, get to the close, which will happen so naturally. It will just absolutely materialize in front of your eyes if you do your job correctly.

Roger: By helping people, really listening, and saying, "I’ve got two solutions that can address what you just spoke to. Would it be appropriate to go over those right now?" Of course, you're going to say yes. Versus, "Let me show you." Nobody wants to be shown anything. You can say, "May I share something with you?" Sharing is great. Showing? Not a good word. But even better, ask permission: "Would now be an appropriate time to share the options with you that I’m positive can help you accelerate your growth in 2024 based on what you just shared with me?"

Steve: Yeah.

Roger: Cool. Let’s do that. Let’s review these together. Let’s review these together. I’m not going to show it; let’s review these together.

Steve: Yeah, I’m super passionate about this stuff, man. I’m sorry. I know I go off like my form, but this is my thing.

Roger: I think this is actually really helpful to our listeners because when you're in field sales, this stuff works over the phone, but I think it’s even more important in the field to be practiced and to be smooth. Because being phony shows up so much more in person than it does over the phone. I think people just read people better in person or something—it feels easier to be over the phone and sell because it’s just less effective.

Body Language And Tonality In Sales

Steve: You can do it over the phone, but it is easier. It’s less scary, and you have to worry about this stuff less.

Roger: Well, one thing that you said that stuck in my mind, that I think is actually an important point for the people on the phone with less gray hair than you and I: you said, "Well, let me just write this down so I make sure I get it right." Implicit in that was that you were holding a pen and a piece of paper. I think a lot of people rely on their phones to take notes now because it is better, it’s easier, it’s a better tool. But it comes across as very—it doesn’t come across well, I think, especially if you're selling to older people. But maybe to everyone, it kind of feels like you're fubbing them, phone ignoring them.

Steve: If you're on your phone, it’s like, "What, are you checking your Instagram real quick?" Even if you're just taking notes. But if you say something—if you have a pen and a piece of paper—and you're like, "I just want to make sure I get this down right," it almost signals that this is really important. What you're saying is so important that I have to write it down. I’m going to follow up with this. It implies how seriously you're taking it, whereas it gives a very different feeling than if you're taking the same exact notes on your phone. So I would recommend holding a real pen and a real piece of paper and a nice pen and writing things with that nice pen. And then when you get to the car, transferring that to whatever system that is digital, that you're storing things in. It’s an extra step, I know, but it comes across way better.

Roger: You just gave a knowledge bomb right there. That is gold because—and I can say this—I’ve got a 23-year-old daughter and a 20-year-old son. So I have two Gen Z kids who I love to death. And I manage a lot of Gen Z and millennials in my businesses. And it’s funny, I watched the millennials—they started taking notes on the computer, and now Gen Z likes to take notes on their phone. And again, I understand it is more efficient, you could go right into your CRM, all that, but it’s not effective. Never confuse efficient with effective.

Roger: And we want to be effective when we're selling and putting pen to paper. For the audience, think about this: if you get an email from somebody and it says, "Thank you for the meeting. I really appreciate the time. You just maybe bought a car, hope you're really enjoying your new car, and don't forget your free oil change at 10,000 miles, tell your friends," that’s great. But if you get a handwritten note in the mail from someone, from your salesperson, that says, "I hope you are enjoying your new Lexus. That is one of the finest automobiles we’ve ever carried on the lot. Don’t forget, you’ve got a four-year warranty, and we take care of the first two things. If you think anybody else could benefit from driving a car as nice as the one you’re driving, I’d love for you to send them my way. Regardless, have a wonderful week. I appreciate you so much," you’re going to send that guy some business.

Roger: You’re going to send them some business. So think of it the same way—an email versus a handwritten card in the mail. That’s no different than if somebody were typing in front of you or you were typing while taking notes. Yes, you’re listening and taking notes, but all they’re seeing is you typing on your computer. They don’t see you fully engaged in what they’re saying. Then you can stop and say, "Just one second, let me write that down because that’s an important part of what you just shared with me." They’ll pause because they realize, "Wow, this person is really genuinely caring about my business."

Roger: And you can’t do that even if you’re holding a phone or if a phone is on the table. I hate when people turn their phone upside down on the table. I’m guilty of it too, but put the phone in your pocket. It’s just you and the prospect. Too many times, we let technology be this buffer because we’re trying to be efficient. I’d rather be effective and make a whole lot more money.

Steve: Absolutely. I used to walk around with one of those... little leather-bound binders with just a notepad inside.

Roger: Yeah.

Steve: Legal pad and a pen, with a pen attached to it, and that’s all I would walk into a sales meeting with—just that.

Roger: Yep. Love it.

Steve: Although in those days, I guess you couldn’t really present from a laptop, so today, the world has changed. But I still think that...

Roger: Maybe you have to bring your laptop with you now, plug it in to present or whatever, but I think when you’re just having the conversation, just having that pen and paper is the right way to go.

Steve: 100%. 100%. I’ve heard you use the phrase "say less and sell more." Can you talk about what that means to you and how you strike a balance between providing enough context and avoiding information overload?

Roger: Yeah, and I’m sure I stole that from somebody. I cannot imagine that I’m the first guy to say "say less and sell more." But I say that because everyone has heard the 80/20 rule—the prospect should be speaking 80% of the time, and you 20%. We all know this—two ears, one mouth, blah, blah, blah. Yep. Most people don’t do that, right? So again, we need to be reminded more than we need to be educated. Everybody already knows this. You already have an education on what you should do.

Roger: But how to do it can be easily solved by putting your agenda to the side, putting your 37-slide deck to the side (because you’ll get to that eventually), and focusing everything on the conversation with the customer. Allow them to talk to you. Probe more. "Tell me more about that." "How did you get in that position?" "How long have you been dealing with that issue in your business?" "Wow." "What are the implications?" "What does that do to the bottom line?" "How do your team members react when you have an issue like that?" You’re just asking questions, and they’re going to keep talking. The craziest thing is, and you know, this is from Chris Voss’s Never Split the Difference, just repeat back the last three words. So if you were to say, "Roger, tell me about how the franchises are growing right now..."

Roger: If you’re asking that question, that’s not a good example, but let’s say you say something, and I’m going to repeat those last three words back to you. So, "You’re curious about my head tilt?" Then you’re going to elaborate on, "I want to know more about your head tilt because I think that might help my listeners," blah, blah, blah. So if you want to be an active listener and keep yourself present in the moment, right there, "say less and sell more." Use that mirroring technique or parroting, I guess you’d say, of...

Roger: Just repeating those last three words. Then people say it as a question—you know, you raise your tonality. Usually, when we ask a question, we raise our voice: "Steve, can you tell me more about that?" When we make a statement, we drop our voice. So, if I raise it, like "Beaver's mapping system?" then you're going to tell me more about Beaver's mapping system. As humans, when somebody says that to us, we can’t help but respond and give more information.

Roger: So we can speak so much less by saying, "That’s interesting. What else is affecting your growth plans or could positively impact your growth plans in 2024?" You’re going to tell me, and whatever you say, I’m going to say, "More?" "Easier or faster app download?" As a question, you’re going to talk to me about that. So again, it’s not manipulation; I’m trying to help you...

Roger: ...understand what you need. Then I’ll use my presentation to hopefully persuade you that this makes the most sense because I believe it, or I wouldn’t be here in front of you as a salesperson.

Steve: So, how about converting prospects to customers? How does active listening better convert your prospects?

Roger: As we all know, people...

Roger: ...usually will not make a change if they’re super comfortable. If everything is going great, if you can get somebody to change, you’re a better salesperson than I. It’s when they’re in growth mode or they’re in trouble. People buy when they’re in growth mode or trouble, and that’s when you can help the most. That’s why you always want to continue following up with your prospects when they don’t need you, because someday they’re going to need you. They’re either going to start growing faster or not nearly fast enough, and they’re going to need you. That’s why we continually prospect and follow up with people. Just check in.

Roger: We don’t try to sell them, just check in so they know we’re here when they need us. But that active listening is going to make the conversion—the close—so much easier because they themselves have identified the issues. They’ve told you, "I have this problem," "I have this problem," "This isn’t working very well," "This guy in this department is not helping me out," "My boss is pressuring me." They’re going to tell you everything on how to present your product in a way that will solve that for them.

Roger: Then when you do say, "Okay, you said your boss is really riding you right now, and that’s because inventory is not being managed closely enough. So am I hearing correctly that if you can get this inventory management under control, your boss is going to be much more pleased with you, and you’ll probably get a better merit increase, maybe even a promotion?"

Steve: Yeah.

Roger: "Okay, well let’s put that down as priority number one—getting you promoted." "Okay, number two," and then just go down that list. Then I would say...

Roger: "May I share our solution to this? Because I think you're in the right place at the right time here in front of me, and I can help you fix this. I can literally help you get promoted if that’s your goal."

Steve: "Yeah, sure."

Roger: Walk them through your process, and then simply say, "Based on everything you told me, it seems to all line up. Would you agree?"

Steve: "Yeah."

Roger: "My process is, at this point, to go ahead and move to the next step in the procurement process, which is...whatever your step is."

Roger: "Does that seem like a fair solution to you?"

Steve: "Yeah, yeah, sure."

Roger: "Cool, let’s go ahead and get the contract written up." (I never call it a contract, I call it the agreement.) "Let’s get the agreement written up and make sure you can review that. If we can get that done today, we can get started for you immediately." "I know the holidays are coming up or just passed, or it’s summer or whatever—there’s always a reason to wait. So let’s not let that stop you from getting what you need. Let’s get started today. Fair enough?"

Roger: If you say "Fair enough?" and raise your voice, it’s really hard for somebody to say no. You know what they’re going to say?

Steve: "Yeah."

Roger: "Yeah, let’s go." Or there will be a legitimate objection, and then you overcome that objection. You know, that’s a whole other podcast. But I’ve found—and I’m sure you’ve seen this too—if you do what I call an "intake," whatever sales book you read that month will have a different name for it, but it’s all about understanding the prospect’s needs.

Roger: If you've done that really, really, really well and gone deep, and didn’t stop with the third "why," but got down to the fifth "why" of why they really want your help or need help, and then you play that back to them and align it with your product or service and how it solves their problem, there won’t be a lot of objections. You know, maybe they bring up price, and well, we can finance that. We can do this. What is your budget? But you should have already uncovered what their budget was. You would have done that earlier. You know, "I need to ask a committee," or "I need to ask my spouse."

Overcoming Challenges In Active Listening

Roger: Like, that should have come out earlier when you asked who else is involved in the decision because you want to make sure that their results don’t get hung up in some committee. So you can pull that out earlier. I have found that when you're really, really, really good at the intake process, at the needs discovery—whatever you call it—that when you understand the prospect, you're going to eliminate 90% of the objections, if not all of them. It almost becomes like you think you have Jedi mind power because they’re...

Roger: ...going right into the close without any objections. But that's because you've already overcome those with the discovery process, and you've aligned one of your solutions to one of their potential objections.

Steve: And what about, you know, some people might say it’s really hard to be an active listener for long periods of time. It’s the age of ADD. How would you advise someone to overcome mental fatigue and just how hard it is to focus this way for an entire conversation?

Roger: It’s a lot harder being broke than it is listening.

Roger: So I would say that you shouldn’t need too much motivation. Yeah, things are...you know, everybody talks about attention spans being shorter, and here’s another excuse that some salespeople use: "Well, nobody has an attention span anymore. I can’t even keep somebody’s attention for five minutes." That’s funny because people will watch nine hours straight of a Netflix show, right? So the attention is there. The attention span is still the same, but the competition for the quality that attention is given to has definitely increased. So, there’s no doubt about it—the competition and the quality necessary to keep someone’s attention is much higher. That’s why you have to be better at your job—better at active listening, better at getting them to do the talking. But the attention span is still there; you’ve just got to earn it. You’ve got to earn it. So, I don’t know if I have a tip or trick on staying focused. I’ve heard you can put a rubber band on your wrist and snap it or use other tricks, but...

Roger: I don’t know. My whole thing is, "Did I hear what they just said?" If not, I’m going to stop and say, "Can you repeat that?" because I want to make sure I clearly understand. Just admit you didn’t hear it to keep yourself present. Don’t fool yourself into thinking, "Well, it’s just different these days." There’s more competition for attention, but the top people will always make the most money. Somebody’s making money, and you want to be in that group.

Steve: Well, let’s do some quick questions, quick answers—like all sales in 60 seconds. First question: What is your top tip for practicing active listening virtually or over the phone versus in person?

Roger: Record yourself, record yourself, record yourself, and then listen back to that. Listen when you're in your car. Most salespeople are in their car a lot or in their office. They can listen while they take a little break. If you record yourself with your smartphone and listen to your pitches, listen to your discovery process, you’ll start to hear where you're doing well and where you went off the rails.

Steve: And what are some common mistakes that you see salespeople making when they practice active listening?

Roger: Yeah, well, practice doesn’t make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. So we want to listen to this podcast again, read some great books on this—there are a thousand YouTube videos. So listen to those and compare them to what you’re doing. There’s no magic answer here. It’s about figuring out what you need to do. I’m hopefully telling the listeners right now what they should do, and then they should record themselves and ask, "Am I doing that? Did I pause? Did I use hand gestures in an open, welcoming way? Was I closed off? Did I...

Roger: ...show expression on my face?" Again, you can be role-playing in front of a mirror—you don’t have to have a live prospect. But remember, perfect practice makes perfect. You don’t have to do the whole role play—just identify where you messed up, go back, and try it 15 times in a row. You want to practice not until you’re right, but until you can’t get it wrong. Those are two different things.

Steve: Do you have any tips on making sure that you’ve been clear in your communication? Any ways to tell if the coin has dropped for the listener?

Roger: Yeah, that’s a great question. Again, I always default back to asking the question, "Is what I just presented making sense?" I love saying, "Does that make sense?" or "Did everything we talked about today align with what you're looking to accomplish?"

Roger: Did I miss anything? Was there anything that I forgot to ask because sometimes I get busy and I’m listening to you? Is there anything else I should know about your situation so I can make sure I formulate the best, most cost-effective proposal with the best results? It’s just going back and asking the customer. We don’t want to assume anything. So, in 60 seconds: Don’t assume.

Steve: That's so important. Since this is an area of expertise for you, I definitely don’t want to leave without asking: What is your top wellness tip or a couple of wellness tips that you think would help our listeners?

Roger: Sure. So, of course, I’m the CEO of Rockbox Fitness, which is a boxing-for-fitness concept, and Beam Light Sauna, which is an infrared studio—private infrared studio—where people go into their own private room and have their own private infrared sauna. There’s all kinds of data on why infrared sauna is so much better than regular sauna and on red light therapy and whatnot. But I’m passionate about health and wellness, and those are my brands. Honestly, I’m more passionate about business, but Steve, this ties into everything we just talked about today. Health and wellness? There’s going to be another diet book published this year—or a hundred published—and it doesn’t make any sense because we already know everything we need to know: Eat less, exercise more, sleep enough. Don’t eat processed foods. Shop on the perimeter of the grocery store where the real food is—the stuff that had parents, swam in the ocean, or grew on a tree or in the ground. We all know this stuff. It’s about making a commitment to doing one thing differently and just doing that. Like, "I’m only going to..." I’m making this up, but maybe you decide, "I’m not going to eat past 6 PM." Some people shouldn’t eat past 6 PM depending on their metabolism, their weight, their goals. But whatever the goal is...like New Year’s resolutions, or when we say, "Okay, summer is bikini season, and we try to do everything,"—that’s hard. Human beings are not good at doing everything all at once. I’m guilty of it too—"I’m going to change everything: I’m going to exercise, I’m going to eat less, I’m going to sleep more, I’m only going to eat whole foods, I’m not going to drink alcohol." Well, more power to you, but that’s a lot of change. We’ve developed these habits because they’ve become routine for us. So we need to make a good habit a routine, then we can stack another habit and another.

Roger: You know, the easiest way that I’ve found when my weight starts to fluctuate is I get all the junk out of the house. The chips go, the wine goes, the processed foods go—everything goes. It’s funny when it’s not in the pantry and it’s 9 o’clock at night, you may just eat an apple or decide to go to bed. But when there’s a bag of chips or candy or dry cereal—which is total garbage (I love it, but it’s still garbage)—when it’s there, you’ll snack on it. When it’s not readily available, you won’t. Here’s the simple answer: Don’t stack the deck against yourself when it comes to wellness. If you want to start working out early in the morning, put all your clothes out—your tennis shoes, everything—right by your bed so there’s no effort involved in actually putting the clothes on. The hardest part is getting out of bed and driving to the gym. Just tell yourself, “I’m just going to drive to the gym today. I may not even go in, but I’m driving to the gym today.” Usually, if you get to the parking lot, you’ll think, “You know what? I’ll go in, at least for 30 minutes.” Or, say to yourself, “I’m just going to do five minutes on the StairMaster.” Maybe you’ll do 10, then 15, and be done for the day. It’s about setting these little micro-goals. Say, “Tomorrow, I’m going to set my clothes out again. I’m going to drive to the gym. I’m not committing to going in.” Because every time we make a promise to ourselves—this is true in sales as well—and we break that promise, our self-belief and self-confidence go down a notch because we don’t believe what we’re telling ourselves. Every time we make a small promise to ourselves and keep it, our self-confidence and self-belief go up. So, just make small incremental changes to your diet, your workout, your alcohol consumption, etc. You don’t have to live a perfect life. But if you want to make these changes, make small promises and then keep those promises. Don’t overpromise because every time you break that promise, you’re chipping away at your own fabric.

Steve: Great advice, just fantastic advice. Next section, I’m going to try to summarize some of the stuff we’ve said here because so many people are driving when they listen to these.

Steve: First of all, active listening is all about asking a question and actually taking the time to pause and listen. Work to actively understand what your prospect’s true needs are. Often, they won’t even know what they need. The goal of active listening is to uncover what they really need. Be diligent and intentional about how you have your sales conversations. When asking about your prospect’s business, slow down, pause, and get quieter. This will allow prospects to really tune into what you’re saying. Use tonality, and be authentic in your conversations with prospects when you ask questions and when you’re reacting to what they say. Use a curious tone to pull out more information from your prospects.

Steve: You can use body language to further connect and communicate with prospects too. One tip from Roger I love is to try to keep your palms up and open with prospects to signal that you’re open to receiving what they’re saying. Don’t cross your arms or come off as closed off. This applies when you’re giving speeches too. Just showing your palms a little bit helps put people at ease because, as Roger mentioned, it’s instinctual or evolutionary—back to caveman days when you couldn’t hold a weapon if your hands were empty. Practice often, and take the time to role-play with your coworkers, your mirror, or even your dog—whatever works. Role-play and practice to get better. When speaking with a prospect, pick one area of improvement to focus on at a time so you can really stay focused on what your prospect is saying.

Practical Tips For Sales Success

Steve: When communicating with prospects, if you want to note something important they said, take notes with pen and paper rather than using your laptop or phone. It shows that you’re only focused on them, and technology can make you seem distracted or disconnected if you put it between you and the prospect. One trick to being an active listener is repeating back words your prospect said to show that you really heard them—and often to get them to say more and dig deeper. One thing I love: when you’re closing, review what the discussion was and use the phrase “fair enough.” It’s super powerful, so that’s definitely one to tuck away in your back pocket. People’s attention spans are still there, but you have to work to earn them. Make sure you’re bringing quality information to your prospects and not wasting their time.

Steve: So much great information today, Roger. Where can our listeners read more about your work or get in touch with you?

Roger: Sure, thank you for asking. I have a new book coming out by the time this episode is posted, called An Insider’s Guide to Business: Secrets from an Entrepreneur’s Playbook. It’ll be available on Amazon, in paperback or Kindle. I’ve started many books, but this one was really important to me. I wrote it, finished it, and edited it seven times. I’m really proud of it because, although I have my MBA, when I got into business—especially when I started running my own businesses—my learning curve was like a 90-degree angle. I kept wondering, "Where was this information when I was getting my graduate degree? Where were the classes on how businesses actually work?" The book covers topics like the difference between marketing and branding, when to use both, how to use scarcity and urgency in sales, the 80/20 rule, active listening, and more. I even give examples with pauses, like ellipses, in the book to demonstrate. I also talk about finances—what are the four key things you need to focus on when running a division, department, or company? I discuss values and culture and why those matter. It’s not just corporate BS on a wall or in an operations manual. The book is full of real stories, real mistakes I’ve made, so that readers don’t have to make them.

Roger: It’ll be on Amazon when this episode goes live. You can follow me at "Real Roger Martin" on most social platforms, and on LinkedIn, it’s just Roger Martin. I post videos and tips similar to what we discussed today. I’m super passionate about business.

Steve: Fantastic! This has been a great episode of Outside Sales Talk. If you work in field sales, you’ll love Badger Maps—the number one route planner helps you sell 20% more and drive 20% less. Get a free trial at badgermapping.com. If you know of any other sales reps who would benefit from what Roger taught us today, definitely forward this episode to them. Roger, thanks so much for coming today!

Roger: It’s been my pleasure. Appreciate it, thank you.